NYLP: Welcome to the fourth episode of the New York Launch Pod, a podcast highlighting new start-ups, businesses and openings in the New York City area. I am Hal Coopersmith and stepping on to the launch pod is Ben Gordon and Matt Bachmann, the co-founders of one of my favorite coffee companies, Wandering Bear Coffee. Welcome to the podcast Ben and Matthew.
Ben and Matthew: Thank you great to be here.
NYLP: So, your coffee is absolutely delicious.
Matt: Well, gosh, I’m glad you think so.
Ben: I’m also happy the listeners can’t see us blushing right now, but thank you.
Matt: We are still at this stage where every compliment actually brings a smile to our face, email or otherwise.
NYLP: And it’s not regular coffee that you guys make, it is iced coffee but cold brew coffee, correct?
Ben: That’s correct. We make a straight black cold brew coffee. You mentioned that it is iced coffee that is typically how it is enjoyed best. Certainly how we talk about in the survey and enjoyed ourselves. So it’s really cold brew as a category to talk little bit about that. It is objectively better iced coffee. So, traditionally iced coffees have been brewed hot and then poured over ice, were brewed hot and then allowed to return to room temperature and then poured over ice. And what that does is really creates a bitter and stale and acrid coffee. But cold brewing, it never introduces the coffee to heat. So we steep coffee grounds in cold water for 18 hours, what that does is it creates a gentle, slow extraction process, that yields a naturally smooth and boldly flavored coffee and it’s a really perfect way to make iced coffee.
Matt: It’s the iced coffee the way it’s meant to be.
NYLP: A lot of people have been talking about cold brew iced coffee. It seems like it’s gotten a lot more popular. Starbucks is doing something I recently read about. How did you guys get into cold brew iced coffee?
Ben: You know, to be honest, we came at this as consumers. Personally, I learned about cold brew back in 2009. When I was living in Detroit at the time. I had a roommate who, I would call him first hipster that I knew. He was a coffee nut. When we lived together he had a subscription to Blue Bottle Coffee, which is a great, premium, third wave coffee brand. And he would get these great fresh-roasted beans delivered by the pound to our Detroit apartment every couple of weeks. And he had all sorts of different apparatus and devices to make this coffee and he really loved to make cold brew coffee. So he taught me how to do it in a french press and I was hooked pretty much immediately. At the time I was working on a film set in a humid, Detroit in July and this iced coffee was really what really got me through those days and got me hooked for years to come. And then I met Matt.
Matt: I read about it online, I think about 2012, I’ve always loved iced coffee. I had a french press which is how Ben and I first got started, yeah, just tried it at home and became hooked, it became the way I would make coffee at home. Would still go and find it at my favorite cafes. I mean we hadn’t really gotten into the process at that time, making cold brew. While a relatively simple process in its essence, what it is, it is just steeping coffee grounds in water. But it requires time, forethought, planning, and creates a bit of mess at small or large scale when you have to separate the grounds from the actual beverage at the end. So we’d still go out and find it at cafes but very often you’d find a 32 ounce french press sitting in my fridge full of coffee grounds, steeping.
NYLP: How were you making your volume of iced coffee?
Matt: It has been iterations.
Ben: Yeah, I mean, so after years of sort of perfecting our personal skills, making it in these french presses, Matt and I decided to launch a coffee company. Which meant suddenly we were going to have make it in a much larger quantities. You know, we moved into a commercial kitchen, we bought the equipment necessary to start making tens and hundreds of gallons of this stuff at a time and then we moved into the kitchen and we got ready to brew our first batch. So, we put a ton of coffee grounds in these big vats and put a bunch of cold water in there, and we let it steep for 18 hours and we came back the next day to find what was essentially coffee colored water. It turns out that there are actually a lot of nuances and basically were taught the lesson that we didn’t know how to make cold brew coffee at scale.
Matt: To dial it back even a second. I mean, you said we were ready to make hundreds of gallons. We certainly thought we were. There was a moment a month or so before we moved in, we had bought a bunch of five gallon buckets and were making cold brew at that point in our apartments. We weren’t selling it yet, we were just experimenting, bringing it to events or taste tastings.
NYLP: With your own refrigerators?
Matt: So at this point we were doing it in five gallon buckets at home in our home fridge. To be completely honest, cleaning the buckets in our bathtubs at that point. And again this was never sold, this was never coffee we sold.
Yeah, we were absolutely convinced we had everything we needed to scale this business. In our first deck, there’s a slide. It shows some filters and five gallon buckets and maybe a mop and a strainer or something. I think we’re standing up there in front of a bunch of judges and then we got everything we need, we’re ready to go tomorrow. God, it’s freaking hilarious.
NYLP: So you step into the commercial kitchen and then what?
Matt: Three days before we’re about to brew our first batch, the manager of the facility we work at overhears us speaking to each other about how we’re going to do this five gallon bucket set-up and starts laughing to himself. He’s like, “You guys are absolutely wasting your time. What are you doing?” So right before we’re going to brew we get larger five gallon buckets, you know, large drums and that’s the equipment Ben is referring to but we did not know how to brew at that scale at that time.
NYLP: What did you learn?
Ben: We learned that every single variable ends up in the final product. That everything is going to ultimately impact the taste of the coffee. That comes down to the bean, the roast type, the grind types, the ratio to water, the length of time it’s steeped for. And we thought that this was just a simple multiplier, right? We thought that if we had figured all those variables out at five gallons, then why shouldn’t we be able to do that at 500 gallons?
Matt: Yeah, we knew the variables mattered, they all mattered. What we didn’t know is that they didn’t matter in the same way at 32 ounces as they did at five gallons as they would at 55 for 500 or 1,000 gallons. So there is a learning curve in getting to render that same style of coffee given the different physical constraints.
NYLP: What went wrong the first time?
Matt: To pinpoint the core thing that went wrong is we did not ensure that the coffee was equally mixed into the water to create an evenly distributed solution and as a result we weren’t fully extracting all of the bean. If you think of a bean or just like a round sphere, essentially. All of the surface area wasn’t being equally exposed to water and as a result we weren’t getting enough of the coffee into the final solution.
NYLP: How did you fix that?
Matt: I mean, honestly, it was a bit of trial and error.
Ben: Yeah, I mean so that batch specifically we fixed by pouring down the drain and vowing never to tell anyone about it until this where we’re telling a lot of people about it.
Matt: We were waiting for you to start this podcast.
Ben: So yeah, that batch went down the drain, chalked it up as a loss and a learning experience and then we sort of dissected retrospectively all of the steps we took and started to talk to the people in the kitchen where we work out of. So we worked out of a shared commercial kitchen and there are a ton of young food and beverage brands. And frankly, there’s a staff there has a lot more experience in producing commercial beverages than we do. So we were able to sort of sit them down and walk them through every step we took and they knew right away what we did wrong, which was great both because we diagnosed the problem and also learned early on that we had this network around us that we could access and leverage for that kind of deep experience that would’ve taken us probably years to learn.
NYLP: Where is your kitchen?
Ben: It is in Queens, it’s in Long Island City.
NYLP: And are you brewing all of the coffee yourself?
Matt: We still run our own production. So now we are fortunate we have been able to find a handful of guys, four in total, that work with us. I mean, we are still quite involved.
NYLP: How much coffee do you produce?
Matt: So in gallons, I would say between 300 and 500 gallons per brew.
NYLP: And how many brews you do per week or per month?
Matt: We’re currently brewing two days per week right now. So I guess we should explain how this works. So, you know, the cold brewing process as Ben mentioned before, takes a period of time, 12 to 24 hours is what would yield a cold brew coffee, that length of steep. So we have two days of production, one where the brew gets set-up and the second where it gets filtered and packaged. So those are our two days of production, so we’re doing one brew per week over two days.
NYLP: You are doing 300 to 500 gallons per week. Are you a seasonal business? Are people drinking at iced coffee in the summer than they are in the winter?
Matt: Yes, absolutely. There is higher consumption in summer. I think one of the things that pleasantly surprised us. We know we drank this type of coffee, drank iced coffee year around. We’re not alone and if you’re out there listening and you drink iced coffee year round, you are not alone. I would say, if you look at the numbers from peak of where we were at last summer, the trough of this winter was about 50% off that.
NYLP: Where do you get your beans from?
Matt: Beans themselves they were born and raised in Colombia, southern Colombia in a district called Calca, which is all the way in the south.
NYLP: And you found the farmer yourself? How did you establish a relationship?
Matt: So we don’t directly source, we source through or with our roaster who is based in Brooklyn and imports through a cooperative and an exporter that worked in Colombia and imports into the US.
NYLP: Your packaging is pretty unique also. How did you come up with packaging?
Ben: We knew we wanted to do something unique with the packaging. We knew that we wanted to do something other than a glass bottle for a couple of reasons. One, most of the cold brews on the market before us were packaged in glass bottles, so we wanted to do something to differentiate ourselves there in a tangible, physical way. But also what we found is that coffee is actually a lot like wine. It will oxidize and go stale when it is exposed to light or air. And so when you package it in a plastic bottle or glass bottle as soon as you open that, you got a few, maybe three or four days before it starts to go stale. And so we wanted to try and solve that and find a packaging solution that would keep the coffee fresh and make it as convenient and easy as possible for people to have great iced coffee in their homes.
Matt: Yeah, the bottle is fine for a single serve package, but since we were targeting and really trying to solve this puzzle of how do you get great iced coffee at home or in the office, we needed something that could keep a multi-serving fresh for a number of days. And so as Ben referenced, we looked to the boxed wine industry. You know there is saying about artists that, “good ones copy and great ones steal”. I think it was Bota Box that inspired our packaging.
Ben: It was really Matt, one day had, what I would refer to as a flash of insight. Whatever he saw, I’m not even sure, was it in your apartment or on a store shelf or in a friends office?
Matt: No I was in a friend’s office, it was a weekend, we were just hanging out and he pointed to the Poland Spring cooler, the water cooler with the five gallon jug dispensing. He was like, “Why can’t you just put coffee like that?” And there are number of reasons that why we don’t need to get into. But what it piqued in my mind was my Brita container, in my refrigerator at home, the one that holds maybe three liters of filtered water and dispenses from a spigot. And so that connection was like, “Wait. Why couldn’t you just put that in my home refrigerator?” Obviously raised the question of, “How do you keep it fresh then?” Because that’s exposed to all sorts of air and it was only a half leap then to get to the concept of boxed wine. Googled furiously, Ben and I both were like . . . Really on and off for probably a couple of months trying to find someone else who was doing this, convinced that we couldn’t have been the first ones to want to put iced coffee in a bag and box.
NYLP: This seems kind of like a silly question, but how does it get into the box? What’s the packaging mechanism?
Matt: There is a bag, same bag used for the premium boxed wines. It’s a great product, incredibly durable. I mean we’ve taken baseball bats to it, I mean, the thing is virtually indestructible but 100% recyclable.
NYLP: Is it the exact same bag?
Matt: As Bota Box, for example, yes it is. And we put the bag inside a box. In the industry it’s called bag and box. They’re very creative.
NYLP: How many glasses of coffee in a box?
Matt: Twelve eight ounce cups.
NYLP: So 96 ounces, how did you choose that number?
Matt: So one of the things we realized when we got into the beverage business, one of the hardest things to reinvent differently, like one of the biggest constraints on what you’re able to do is packaging. Both because the machinery is complex, large, made for large runs for most of the time and also because it tends to be produced en mass. Three liters, which is equivalent to about 100 ounces, is an industry standard for this type of packaging on the consumer side. We weren’t going to reinvent that, initially. Now we are looking at, actually, alternative sizes. But, you know, from the beginning we weren’t trying to reinvent the wheel, we went with what was available.
NYLP: Yet it seems like a great size.
Matt: I agree. I guess we weren’t the first people to think that it’s a great size.
NYLP: Who would you say your competition is?
Matt: So if you take our mission at the highest level, which is to bring a great iced coffee into the home and office, to make it accessible to consumers in the home and office, then you could say our competition is the place where people are otherwise getting their iced coffee, and the majority of that is from cafes. From places like Starbucks or in New York where you have so many wonderful smaller chains or smaller cafes, from there. So, I mean, I think from a behavioral perspective in our category, you could say it is cafe iced coffee. In the category itself there are a number of other great players out there that make versions of a cold brew iced coffee, some are concentrates in glass bottles, others are now some coming out with ready to drink. It’s hard to say that they are going strictly after the home and office in the same way we are.
NYLP: How come you chose not to have a store front? How come you chose to distribute in the way that you are doing so?
Ben: It was a few things, right? But we were really setting out to build a consumer package brand. Matt and I drank most of our coffee, in our previous lives, drank most of our coffee both in our homes and our offices. We were busy, we were young, out of college and hustling, spending the majority of our waking hours in offices. So that’s actually what we went after first. We realized that we were drinking all this coffee in the offices and the options available to us simply weren’t that great. At best, maybe you’ll have an espresso or a Keurig machine in an office. And so that’s sort of what we wanted to go after, so that was one piece of it. The other is frankly, it’s a tough market out there for a brick and mortar coffee shop. Especially one trying to really establish itself in as pricey and competitive a market as Manhattan.
Matt: When you’re starting a business you become quickly as defined as much by you’re trying to as what you acknowledge that you aren’t trying to do. Even if those are things that sound cool or could potentially be helpful. From the beginning we’ve really forced ourselves to focus. We say to each other a lot, “That sounds like a distraction.” And we’ll say to each other at least, it will be going in both directions a couple of times a week when each of us will have an idea or an email will come across that is a great opportunity. It’s something that we want to because it sounds either fun or on-brand in some way. But it’s aside from the core mission, which right now is to build a consumer package brand that lives in the home and the office.
NYLP: How do you distribute?
Matt: So there are currently two sides of the business. We sell to offices via subscription model where we stock office refrigerators on a recurring basis all over New York. We’re also launching with an office distribution partner who will enable us to reach more offices across the New York metro area. On the consumer side, our primary customer right now is Fresh Direct, freshdirect.com. You can find us, we have a product page there and will be launching into other New York based retailers and some other e-commerce sites as well.
NYLP: How are you getting into the retailers?
Ben: Generally speaking we are moving relatively slowly when it comes to launching in various retail.
Matt: Thoughtfully, we are moving thoughtfully.
Ben: Thoughtfully, that’s a better word for it. So far the effort has largely been a little bit of grit a little bit of hustle and just trying to leverage our network both the ones we came into this business with, the ones we have developed throughout our time in New York and the ones that we have met since starting this business specifically, to try and get conversations with the right people. We’re trying to find places where we think that our product would be a good fit where we might be able to play a little bit differently, reach our customers in a unique and convenient way and expand that customer base.
Matt: It’s hustle and it’s luck. We have won a number of accounts, in some cases literally by talking our way and bribing our way in with coffee. Luckily it tastes good, or at least we’ve been told so. In other cases it has been luck, a chance presentation or meeting set up by a friend or acquaintance, has led to some of our first accounts. I mean, I happen to be taking . . . Barry’s Bootcamp is a great example. I happen to be taking a meeting with a friend of a friend, at the Barry’s Bootcamp Chelsea location. That day the manager of the fuel bar and one of the senior leaders of the company happened to be in the studio, that day. Saw the coffee on the table, inquired about it, struck up a conversation and two weeks later we were live in Barry’s Bootcamp all over New York. Pure luck, right time, right place, right product.
Ben: Whose quote was it that they said . . . I’m going to totally misattribute this, so I’m not even going to try, but the quote itself has stuck which is, “the harder we work the luckier we get” and I think that’s definitely something that we have experienced so far.
Matt: The answer is always run faster, I feel like. If you’re doing the work, you create the opportunities or at least you’re there for more of them. You just need to be doing.
NYLP: What is a sales meeting like?
Ben: So it usually starts with us pulling out a box of coffee, which we’ve gotten pretty good at, moving on from there to actually tasting coffee. Literally the first, probably 15 to 20 minutes, depending on the other side of the table. Usually the first 15 to 20 minutes is spent just talking about the coffee. The taste attributes, the physical attributes, talking about the process, talking a little bit about the story behind the product, talking about how Matt and I met, business school and sort of discovered this shared passion for iced coffee. We try and drag that part as long as possible before we actually get down into the topic of the meeting. But it usually sets a nice stage and one of the really nice things about having a highly caffeinated product is that it gets people talking and gets them open. That’s actually has also been of a nice help to us in those types of meetings, for sure.
Matt: Yeah, that and the fact that we are to date the only cold brew coffee, the only iced coffee for that matter packaged in this format to grocery retailers to office distributors who are constantly seeking new products and new things to offer their customers. You get people in inventive place of mind. They’re thinking about the opportunity of this new product, of this new trend, of wanting to become the part of this rising trend in beverages.
NYLP: How did you two meet?
Matt: It is a great question. It is a fun one. So as Ben mentioned earlier when we were talking before, both of us attended the University of Michigan, 2009, did not know each other there. We actually met on campus this past or two falls ago at this point up at Columbia University where we were both getting our masters degrees. We walked into class, I believe it was a micro econ.
Ben: Yeah, that sounds right.
Matt: Micro econ, that first semester, carrying mason jars, unbranded at the time because Wandering Bear didn’t yet exist. Now you’ll see us frequently with branded mason jars. Mason jars of home-made cold brew coffee that we had made at our apartments independently, that struck up a conversation, obviously. We weren’t sitting far from each other. “Hey, is that cold brew?” So that conversation became a fast friendship, soon starting this company together was all we could talk about.
NYLP: And you’re one year old, so you started this while you were in school, what it was that like?
Ben: It was, honestly, it was a great experience for a number of reasons. I mean, for one, Matt mentioned we were business school students up at Columbia and just having access to the resources at the university was incredibly helpful to the launch of this company. That just general infrastructure resources, but also our peers, our classmates, our friends who served as willing participants in the taste testings, frankly, free consultants. So that was great.
Another thing, I think a lot of people, especially nowadays, have a lot of really great entrepreneurial ambition but it can be hard to leave a stable well-paying job to go out and take that risk. By already making the decision to go back to school, to leave our full-time jobs and go back and not make any money for couple of years. Frankly that sort of opportunity cost, that was already calculated for us. We had what we felt like was 18 months of runway, where we could either try and get this business off the ground to a point where it was worth pursuing full-time in a real way after we graduated. Or, you know, we could try really hard, and if it is failed in those 18 months then we’d at least be left with a degree. It provided certainly some sense of security around otherwise kind of perilous entrepreneurial start.
NYLP: Did either of you think that you would start a coffee company?
Matt: It definitely wasn’t why we went to business school, I don’t think. I don’t think my parents would have approved. Look at me now, mom.
Ben: I know I definitely didn’t. I went back to business school with a lot of goals, none of them was to start a company right away. I have always had entrepreneurial ambitions, I thought that chapter of my career would probably happen later.
Matt: To your credit, you’d already started a business.
Ben started his first food business at the age of 16. It was a bagel delivery service in Detroit which still exists today. One of the first things I remember learning Ben. I though that was pretty impressive at the time, I had never started anything.
Ben: I appreciate that and I definitely I’m very proud of that. But, you know, those days as a bagel boy also taught me how hard it is to start something and to really make it a success. So I felt like I would probably come out of business school and get a real job for a few years. But, you know, things happen and you meet people and you sort of connect on an idea and sometimes there is really just no walking away from that. To be honest, once we decided to head down this path there really have been no doubts and I think we both are having a lot of fun with it.
Matt: Yeah, I would say one common thing that we shared in coming and leaving our previous jobs and starting school, was we were searching for something that we could get passionate about. That we could really dive into wholeheartedly and we found that in this company, for sure.
NYLP: What was it like to being in school and starting a business at the same time?
Matt: Time is something that you don’t have a lot.
Ben: It was tiring, it was really, really tiring. You know that said it was also really fun. If you’re going to try and start a business the best, I think, school environment to do that, probably graduate business school. So I think, we at least think we hit on the right degree.
Matt: Yeah, very supportive.
Ben: Yeah, that said, business school can also be really, really social and really fun. And Matt and I missed more than a couple of happy hours and trips to Puerto Rico and Europe in the name of this company.
Matt: I’m pretty sure there is a happy hour going on right now.
Ben: Yeah, I think that’s right.
NYLP: How many hours in a week do you put in to the company versus school work?
Ben: So pretty much every waking minute is spent on one of the two, with a healthy portion carved out to pay attention to our loved ones. If we’re spending about 12 hours a week in school, probably spending about 60 hours a week working on the business. Does that sound about right?
Matt: Yeah, for me you’re undershooting the school number a little bit. I think I probably spend, I mean, 16 hours a week or 20 hours a week on campus, maybe another handful trying to not disappoint your group workmates and actually get your portion of the assignments done. So, I mean, I would say the direct answer, you asked how many hours a week were we are spending on the business while we were in school. It had to been at least be at least 60. I mean, you have to keep in mind that, since Ben and I launched this business in the middle of June last year we have both been working seven days a week.
We’ve been working seven days a week, I think maybe one or two days off in that time. I will say even though on a day-to-day basis we are tired, on the whole I am nowhere near burnt out. It’s incredibly energetic.
NYLP: How much coffee do you drink per day?
Matt: That definitely varies. Ben you get high off our own sauce, way more than I do I think.
Ben: Yeah, I’m probably averaging between…
Matt: I can’t wait to hear this answer.
Ben: Three and four cups of coffee a day, adjusted for the fact that our coffee has double the amount of caffeine as an average cup of hot coffee. So you’re looking at between six and eight cups of an average cup of coffee a day.
Matt: That’s less than I thought you were going to say. Yeah, I probably drink at least two cups of coffee a day.
NYLP: What did you learn in business school that you could immediately apply to Wandering Bear?
Ben: When we came back to campus in the fall of our second year, we’d been in the market with Wandering Bear for about two months. And really, actually that experience kind of informed what classes we chose to take in our second year of business school. So the first that we enrolled in, when we got back into to campus, Matt and I both took a class called “Managing the Growing Company”. Which you can probably infer from the name was pretty relevant for us. So courses like that, courses like Entrepreneurial Selling, Managerial Negotiations, I mean these all have pretty, business school-y kind of titles but the reality is they were exactly the types of subjects and skills that we needed to learn about and develop if we wanted to continue and scale this business.
I mean, that is a subject matter I had. I was a liberal arts undergrad, I had no experience in accounting. It is absolutely critical. I mean, that’s one of my roles currently, just managing that just being able to think about a business that way. And would not be able to do that function had I not gone back and actually taken the course. Thank you for Prof Clyde.
NYLP: I have read that that you want to expand your distribution. Right now are you just in New York?
Ben: All of our sort of efforts on the ground, marketing focus is all in New York. The only asterisk to that is Fresh Direct does deliver to five states in the Northeast, so they are also New York based but they serve New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware and parts of Pennsylvania. But our focus really is hyper-local at the moment. We are focused on building this brand and this company in New York. We really want to win here, we want to build a strong brand, really get our feet under us before we try and expand and spread ourselves too thin. Which I think is a real risk that a lot of young start-ups, brands and especially a lot of young food and beverage companies face. It’s really tempting to want to expand as quickly as possible, as broadly as possible but to do that is expensive and I think that is something that a lot of brands sometimes overlook when they’re starting out and they get a little bit of traction.
Matt: Absolutely, there is so much work to be done here, too. The market is so large and in both of our channel sets, in both the office and in the consumer base the home apartment, refrigerator. There are just so many consumers.
NYLP: When you talk about winning New York what is important to a New York consumer?
Ben: So I would say the first thing is convenience. I admit New Yorkers, especially with the rise of what they’re calling the “on demand economy” I think convenience is paramount being able being able to get the products and services that you want the same day, basically, and have it brought you to wherever you are. Whether that’s in your home or in your office or on a subway platform. I think that is something that is incredibly important to New Yorkers as we continue to live busier and busier lives, try and multitask even more. That is something that we always have it very top of mind with everything we do. What would you say, Matt?
Matt: I really like that answer. Ben’s point on convenience can’t be overstated. I think that has been a huge enabler for us. There is also an element too, I guess this would hold across the country, but the rise and the focus of local in food and beverage and the fact that we are among the few coffee brands that can truly claim New York and New York City specifically as their home base. There is certainly a community of consumers in New York that value that significantly. And it’s something that we actually hold dear, incredibly. On our packaging, it does read “Handmade in New York City”. We don’t play favorites with the boroughs, I mean we both live in various parts of Manhattan. Our kitchen is in Queens, our coffee is roasted in Brooklyn, that home-market local identity I think, is important as well.
NYPL: I love that you are a New York brand, I think it’s great for the podcast. How can people find out more about Wandering Bear and getting Wandering Bear coffee?
Ben: Check out our website www.wanderingbearcoffee.com, follow us on social media, specifically Instagram, that’s typically where we play best. Our handle is: @wanderingbearco.
And finally feel free to reach out to us. Shoot us an email, we love hearing from our customers. I’m firstname.lastname@example.org. Happy to give that out.
Matt: I would be, email@example.com and if you want to reach us both, that would be firstname.lastname@example.org.
NYLP: Ben Gordon, Matt Bachmann thanks for sharing your time with us and appearing on the New York Launch Pod. If you want to learn more about the New York Launch Pod, you can visit us at nylaunchpod.com or on social media @nylaunchpod.